RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Scaling of longitudinal dimensions from the Lockhart photos indicates the following:
IF the 3P's ball-to-pinhole distance is 19.75" as reported above, the 3P's side link scales to about 4.5" as compared to the HA's link length which, I believe, is 5.0". Also, the drop bar (the part with the three holes showing) scales to 1.8" thick rather than being 2"x2" stock which I would expect it to be.
Perhaps the 19.75" reported above actually is the distance from the ball to the face of the receiver. If this were the case, the 3P's link length would scale to 5.0" and the thickness of the drop bar would scale to 2.0". (Emphasis added)
19.75" is from center of ball to face of receiver
Distance from Hitch pin to center of Ball is 22.5" ......19.75" from Face of TT receiver to Ball center
Clarkely, Thanks for your posting of dimensions and photos (although I expect the moderator will ask you to resize and rearrange the images).
Just one suggested change to your post -- in the upper left hand corner where it says Ron Gratz wrote:, it should say willald wrote:. Also where you state, "Face of TT receiver", I assume you are referring to the receiver on the TV.
On your 3P, the distance from the center of the ball to the face of the receiver is 19.75". Whereas the previous information from another ProPride owner indicated the distance from the center of the ball to the center of the receiver pin was also 19.75".
So, either the two 3P hitches have different lengths or there was an error in the previously reported value, since it's hard to disagree with your tape measure photos.
If the previously reported ball to receiver pin distance of 24" for the HA is correct, then the difference between that measurement and your measurement is only 1.5". Given the different lengths of HA hitch bars, I still believe it is possible that the 3P could be shorter than some HAs and longer than others.
Therefore, I believe that the topic of 3P hitch length versus HA hitch length belongs in the category of "different" rather than "better".
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
In December 2007, the following question was posted on another forum:
"Sean, how much overall length will the Pro Pride hitch add to my trailer in storage?"
The answer from Sean Woodruff was:
"I must have missed this question... It will add about 12" +/- a fraction of an inch."
And, on page 11 of the online Hensley Arrow manual is the statement:
"Complete normal hook-up of safety chains, electric plug, and breakaway switch cable. In some cases these will have to be lengthened due to the Hensley Arrow’s extra length which increases the distance between the trailer and the tow vehicle approximately 12 inches."
So, the question remains --- is the 3P really four inches shorter than the HA? And, if so, what got shortened?
And, getting back to the topic of this thread, does a difference in hitch length make any perceivable improvement in sway control?
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
The Lockhart web page does not show how the yoke’s tail piece fits between the vertical projections of the cross channel. Perhaps a 3P owner can post photos of this detail.
A 3P owner did post some photos on another forum.
The yoke's tail piece, along with the cross channel, can be seen in the third and fourth photos in this post.
The tail piece is the round extension which fits between the two vertical "down tubes". The lateral force exerted by the tail piece on the side of a down tube is what prevents the upper unit from rotating (yawing) relative to the TT's A-Frame.
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
---Hensley distance from ball hitch, to drawbar pinhole: 24" (measured by *me*, on my Hensley yesterday)
Propride distance from ball hitch, to drawbar pinhole: 19 3/4" (measured on Propride owner's hitch)
I've been trying to figure out what was changed in the 3P design to make it 4+ inches shorter as indicated above. With a converging linkage system, shorter is not necessarily better -- especially if the side links have been shortened. A 1/2" reduction in the length of a link will shorten the "projected" distance by about 5".
Scaling of longitudinal dimensions from the Lockhart photos indicates the following:
IF the 3P's ball-to-pinhole distance is 19.75" as reported above, the 3P's side link scales to about 4.5" as compared to the HA's link length which, I believe, is 5.0". Also, the drop bar (the part with the three holes showing) scales to 1.8" thick rather than being 2"x2" stock which I would expect it to be.
Perhaps the 19.75" reported above actually is the distance from the ball to the face of the receiver. If this were the case, the 3P's link length would scale to 5.0" and the thickness of the drop bar would scale to 2.0".
As for comparing 3P dimensions with the dimensions of a specific HA --- it appears there is no fixed length for the various HA hitch bars currently offered. And, Hensley is reported to have offered, at one time, hitch bars which were 1-2" longer to accommodate Enkay mud flaps. And, they reportedly offer a hitch bar which is 6" longer than "standard". So, it appears that, depending on which length of HA hitch bar is being compared, the 3P might be shorter or it might be longer.
I think the main point for this thread is that a couple inches either way is not enough to make any perceivable difference in sway control. If it is true that a converging linkage hitch "completely eliminates" sway, then one design cannot be "better" than another as regards yaw stability. Returning to burbman's comment, I would consider the issue of 3P length versus HA length to belong in the "different" category rather than in the "better" category.
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
---The HA uses struts, the ProPride uses a different YOKE assembly that mounts under the A frame somehow. I have not seen one yet up close and in person, but have been told by folks who have that the ProPride approach is a cleaner design.
Yes, YOKE versus STRUTS is the primary difference between the 3P and the HA. Both devices restrain the upper unit from yaw rotation relative to the ball coupler. But they do it in quite different ways.
There are some good close-up photos of the 3P's yoke on the Lockharts web page.
In the upper right hand corner of the first photo, you can see the complete yoke assembly partly covered by the jacks. In the center of the photo is a horizontal channel with the two vertical projections. This piece fits transversely under the A-frame with the vertical projections pointing down.
The sixth photo shows the horizontal channel installed under the A-frame. The yoke's tail piece fits between the vertical projections and is held up by a retainer bolt. The seventh photo shows the U-bolts which hold the horizontal channel in place.
The ninth and tenth photos show how the left front end of the yoke assembly is bolted, using the single large bolt and washer, to the side of the upper unit. The left front and right front pieces of the yoke are separate from, and bolted to, the rear portion of the yoke. The two bolts on the downward-sloping part of the yoke allow the angle of a front piece to be adjusted relative to the rear portion. This adjustment allows the yoke to be used with ball couplers which are at different heights above the bottom of the A-frame.
The next to last photo shows how the right leg of the yoke fits under the A-frame.
The Lockhart web page does not show how the yoke’s tail piece fits between the vertical projections of the cross channel. Perhaps a 3P owner can post photos of this detail.
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
---I don't have any first hand knowledge of the ProPride, but from what I;ve read and corresponded with the owner Sean Woodruff, they have improved upon the HA design. The mounting of the strut linkage, the adjustable draw bar (stinger), and the purportedly better paint job are the top points.
Don, my understanding is that the 3P does not use any struts.
Can you explain what you mean by the "mounting of the strut linkage"?
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
I can't stand to read anymore....Ron and Will, "Yolk" is that yellow part in the center of an egg..."Yoke" is a mechanism that links separate parts and enables them to work together.
Don, glad you caught the spelling error. Did that intentionally to see if anyone was paying attention (just jolking, of course).
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Don't believe ProPride's adapter is available yet, no. But, it will be soon from what I understand.
Yes, I'm aware of the custom made adapters. However, I think an adapter made specfically for this purpose by the manfuacturer and with their full support, is a MUCH better solution than a custom-made contraption that you have to put a screwdriver blade through to make it work. Wouldn't you agree, Ron?
If and when an adapter becomes available for the 3P, it might be of interest to a relatively few owners. It appears that only a relatively few HA owners have found a need for one.
As regards a commercially-made adapter being a MUCH better solution -- it would depend on how much it costs and how it performs relative to a custom-made adapter. If the cost of a custom-made is right and if it works as I want it to, I really don't care if it takes a screwdriver blade to make it work. I have lots of screwdrivers.
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
---Those that have actually owned a Hensle, know that those retainer pins can and will eventually shear off from wear, no matter how well you follow instructions or not. Doesn't matter how far the bars are swung or not swung. Don't believe it? I can send you one or two sheared off pins sitting on my workbench right now, that I've collected over the years of REAL WORLD experience with a Hensley.
One person who has seven years and 50,000 miles of towing with a HA reports he is still using the original Zerks and retainer pins. Another user reported that his first HA, purchased in 1998, and his second HA, purchased in 2002, both have the original Zerk fittings. Apparently some pins do get sheared off and some do not.
But, getting back to "differences" and "improvements" -- I agree it would be good if a 3P owner could describe how the 3P's WD bars are held in place when they are not loaded.
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
The 3P adjustable bar is multi-piece with bolted construction and numerous welds. The HA bar is a single piece with no welds for the straight bar, and relatively few welds for the drop/raise bars.
Indeed. Same could be said in comparing the hitch shank used on conventional WD hitches, with the HA bar.
In either case, though, I would think as long as the welding is done right, there would never be a problem.
An adjustable hitch bar with bolted construction has not previously been used with a 4-bar linkage hitch.
Right, but such has been used on conventional hitches, for a very, very, long time.
A 4-bar linkage hitch imposes a very large yaw-axis torque on the hitch bar. That is the basis on which it works.
A conventional hitch imposes a much smaller yaw-axis torque on the hitch bar. That's why a conventional hitch is not as effective at controlling sway.
So you really can't equate the loads and stresses and fatigue which are imposed on a conventional hitch with the loads and stresses and fatigue which are imposed on a 4-bar linkage hitch.
The conventional hitch mainly transmits pitch-axis torques. The 4-bar linkage hitch must transmit both pitch-axis torques and yaw-axis torques at the same time.
For that reason, I think the 3P's adjustable hitch bar is more susceptible to overstressing and fatigue damage than is an adjustable hitch bar for a conventional hitch. But, until there are a lot more 3P user miles accumulated, we really won't know.
Ron
RE: WD hitch reduce TT tongue weight contribution to GVWR?
My numerical calculations differ from Fred's, but I think our general conclusions are similar. Using some dimensions which are a little more representative of your TV and potential TT, assume:
TV wheelbase = 120"
TV ball overhang = 60"
TT ball to axles' center distance = 180"
If you place an 850# load on the ball without applying WD,
TV's front axle load will decrease by 425#
TV's rear axle load will increase by 1,275#
Vertical load on receiver will be 850#
If you then load the WD bars so that 200# is transferred to the TT axles, the WD system will cause
TV's front axle load to increase by 400#
TV's rear axle load to decrease by 600#
The net theoretical result, relative to "unhitched" loads, due to tongue weight plus weight distribution gives:
TV's front axle load decreases by 25#
TV's rear axle load increases by 675#
TT's axle load increases by 200#
Vertical load on receiver will be 650#
If the above values are reasonable estimates and if you know what the "unhitched" axle loads are likely to be, then you should have a good idea where you will stand relative to GAWRs, GVWRs, GCWR, and receiver rating.
Ron
RE: Suburban 2500...TT to big?? opinions
---The only fault with the red equation is that someone could miss out buying a TT with a larger GVWR because they don't load it up with stuff.
But since the vast majority of RVers never get on a scale, they don't have any idea what weight they are hauling to begin with.
Another problem with the red equation is that those people who never get on a scale might be way over their GVWR(TV) and/or they might be way over their GVWR(TT). But, yet, they could be satisfying the red equation.
The GVWR really doesn't mean much unless you know what the GVW is.
Ron
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Availability of Hitch Bar with Ball Coupler
Availability of adapter piece I mentioned above, that will allow shops to move your trailer if need be
I know an adapter piece for the 3P has been discussed – but is it really available?
Some HA owners already are using custom-made adapters. An example can be seen here.
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9/3/08 Summary
Some HA owners have found a need for being able to move their TT using a ball rather than having to insert a hitch bar into a hitch receiver. Some HA owners satisfy this need by using a custom-made adapter such as shown here. Others might prefer a commercially-made adapter if reasonably priced.
No details have yet been provided for the design, cost, or date of availability for the purported 3P adapter.
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Hensley Arrow Construction versus ProPride 3P Construction
Link pieces, bearings, etc. are built even more solid (thicker, heavier) than ones used on Hensley
I understand that the 3P's link pieces are thicker. But, I'm not sure about the "bearings, etc." being heavier than the HA counterparts.
Since the 3P's hitch bar appears to be heavier and the 3P's yoke assembly appears to be heavier than the HA's struts and the 3P's link pieces, bearings, etc. are claimed to be heavier, I'm wondering how the 3P can be lighter overall.
It would be interesting to see a comparison of 3P and HA weights.
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RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Hensley Arrow WD Jacks versus ProPride 3P WD Jacks
Jacks used for WD bars place weight on top of A frame instead of outside, reducing risk of the frame brackets bending with age
The HA frame brackets and jack installation are shown on Pages 14 & 16 of the online HA manual.
The bottom end of an installed 3P jack can be seen in the fourth photo on this web page. The Lockhart photo seems to show that the center of the 3P jack is outside of the frame rather than bearing directly on top of the A-frame. Also, the link which pulls up on the WD bar attaches to the U-shaped “hook” which is welded to the outside of the jack on its outboard side.
In the HA system, the upward force on the WD bar is aligned with the vertical center of the jack. It seems to me that there might be more of an eccentric loading of the 3P’s brackets. Again, some properly oriented photos and some measurements would help in clarifying any “differences”.
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Hensley Arrow WD Bar Attachment versus ProPride 3P WD Bar Attachment
Better design that holds the WD bars in place (does not use grease zerks like Hensley uses, that are prone to wear out with time and allow bars to fall out when unhitched)
It would help to see some details of the 3P design.
The HA system is described on Page 18 of the online HA manual.
The vertical end of the WD bar has a “spring bar groove” into which a “spring bar retainer pin” fits. Some bars can shear off the retainer pin if they are swung too far to the side. Other WD bars with a different shape at the ends of the groove do not seem to cause this problem. The HA manual gives instructions on how to avoid damage to the retainer pins.
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9/3/08 Summary
The HA uses retainer pins to hold the WD bars in place when they are completely unloaded. In normal use, the load on a bar holds the bar in the hitch head and the retainer pin does not come into play.
Some HA owners have found retainer pins to be broken off or worn off. A retainer pin is part of a replaceable Zerk fitting.
No information has yet been provided about how the 3P bars are held in place when completely unloaded.
RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Hensley Arrow Pivot Point Location versus ProPride Pivot Point Location
Pivot point actually moved even further forward, due to stinger being slightly shorter than Hensley
The lengths of the HA hitch bar and the 3P hitch bar need to be confirmed. Based just on the photos, it appears the 3P bar might be longer.
It’s not just the length of the hitch bar which is of concern. The length of interest is the distance from the face of the hitch receiver to the ball coupler when the TV and TT are connected. The “projection” distance is measured from the ball.
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RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Hensley Arrow Fixed Hitch Bar versus ProPride 3P Adjustable Hitch Bar
Adjustable height/angle on the hitch bar
The HA hitch bar is shown as Item 5 on page 11 and on page 35 of the HA Manual. The HA bar is available as a straight bar or in “drops” or “raises” in 2” increments.
A very good photo of the 3P’s adjustable bar is shown in the second photo on this web page. The 3P bar is vertically adjustable in increments which appear to be about 1.5” (this needs to be confirmed). The 3P bar also can be adjusted for “tilt”.
The 3P adjustable bar is multi-piece with bolted construction and numerous welds. The HA bar is a single piece with no welds for the straight bar, and relatively few welds for the drop/raise bars.
An adjustable hitch bar with bolted construction has not previously been used with a 4-bar linkage hitch.
The 3P hitch bar appears to weigh more than the HA bar (this needs to be confirmed). Update 9/5/08: The 3P adjustable hitch bar is believed to weigh about the same as an HA 8" drop hitch bar. Other HA bars should weigh less.
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RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Hensley Arrow Struts versus ProPride 3P Yoke
Better design/mechanism used to lock the hitch head in place on trailer - no more U bolts and shear bolts
The 3P yoke system is shown in third photo down on the ProPride Hitch website.
It is entirely different from the HA strut system shown as Item 11 on Page 11 of the HA Manual.
A yoke system was initially described in Mr. Hensley’s 1997 patent titled, Antisway trailer hitch with surge break accommodations.
Mr. Hensley did not claim that the yoke offered any stability improvement over the strut assembly described in his previous patents. Rather, the yoke was introduced as a means to allow for trailer tongue “shortening” when used with a surge brake.
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RE: Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P?
Hensley Arrow Paint versus ProPride 3P Paint
Much better paint used (Hensleys are notorious for rusting a lot, ProPride appears to have fixed that).
Many HA owners have commented on the poor quality of the paint job. Perhaps the new competition will motivate Hensley Mfg to adopt a better process. Initial reports from 3P owners indicate no dissatisfaction with their coatings.
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9/5/08 Summary
The poor quality of the HA's paint/coating is a frequent topic of discussion among HA owners. So far, there have been no complaints from 3P owners.
